Lets have a list of features, useful apps which first appeared on Linux, Im thinking like Apple had HyperCard, BSD had ports first, windows had...let me think er scrollwheel on mice!(Im pretty much at a loss to think if M$ ever did anyting else original and stand with asbestos pants ready to learn that perhaps even here they where less than original; but it must be said they certainly got it to market) But where is Linux innovation, all the CLI stuff is UNIX, X11 is not Linux, a list would be nice
Masked.Slacker@Gmail.Com 6 June 2005 03:22:21 [ permanent link ]
Gordon Ramsy wrote:> Lets have a list of features, useful apps which first appeared on Linux,> Im thinking like Apple had HyperCard, BSD had ports first, windows> had...let me think er scrollwheel on mice!(Im pretty much at a loss to> think if M$ ever did anyting else original and stand with asbestos pants> ready to learn that perhaps even here they where less than original; but> it must be said they certainly got it to market)> But where is Linux innovation, all the CLI stuff is UNIX, X11 is not> Linux, a list would be nice>
Mrs Dogbreath
As far as the Kernel goes, it seems to me that development has generally just followed the path of UNIX kernel development. There hasn't been any major innovation in OS design in the past 20 years (not that I can think of anyway), just improved implementation of everything.
There hasn't been any major innovation in OS design in the past 20 years...
Mr Slacker,
How quickly you forgot about the Microsoft scroll-wheel mouse.<g>
My list of useful things would include (in no particular order)
GUI - Including toolbars, menus, etc. (increased usability to make computers more accessible to non tech users) Plug and play Ubiquitous networking WYSIWYG composition. Object Oriented programming languages HTML Computer Multimedia - (paved the way for digital cameras, MP3, digital camcorders, non-linear editing, special effects, etc.) Email (despite the spam) and of course... that famous scroll-wheel mouse!
probability2003@uku.co.uk wrote:>>There hasn't been any major innovation in OS design in the past 20 years...>
Mr Slacker,>
How quickly you forgot about the Microsoft scroll-wheel mouse.<g>>
My list of useful things would include (in no particular order)>
GUI - Including toolbars, menus, etc. (increased usability to make> computers more accessible to non tech users)> Plug and play> Ubiquitous networking> WYSIWYG composition.> Object Oriented programming languages> HTML> Computer Multimedia - (paved the way for digital cameras, MP3, digital> camcorders, non-linear editing, special effects, etc.)> Email (despite the spam)> and of course... that famous scroll-wheel mouse!>
er, GUI was Xerox's idea, plug and play has a lot to do with PCI/Intel but yeah okay we will let M$ have that one Networking was DARPA et al, OOPS Norwegian/UNIVAC WYSIWYG is a synonym of GUI HTML from CERN None of these are from Linux as innovations!
Come on there must be something we didn't have untill Linux introduced it to us!
There hasn't been any major innovation in OS design in the past 20 years...
None of these are from Linux as innovations!
I wasn't trying to list Linux innovations. But just innovations that appeared in the last 20 years.
DARPA/ARPAnet for example is much more than 20 years old but it wasn't until recently that it became ubiquitous. So that's why I listed it. And while Xerox invented the GUI I would give Apple credit for bringing it to the forefront. HTML stems from SGML but I'm not sure how old SGML is. But the prevelance of HTML didn't appear until recently.
Gordon Ramsy wrote:> probability2003@uku.co.uk wrote:>
There hasn't been any major innovation in OS design in the past 20 >>> years...>>
Mr Slacker,>>
How quickly you forgot about the Microsoft scroll-wheel mouse.<g>>>
My list of useful things would include (in no particular order)>>
GUI - Including toolbars, menus, etc. (increased usability to make>> computers more accessible to non tech users)>> Plug and play>> Ubiquitous networking>> WYSIWYG composition.>> Object Oriented programming languages>> HTML>> Computer Multimedia - (paved the way for digital cameras, MP3, digital>> camcorders, non-linear editing, special effects, etc.)>> Email (despite the spam)>> and of course... that famous scroll-wheel mouse!>>
er, GUI was Xerox's idea, plug and play has a lot to do with PCI/Intel > but yeah okay we will let M$ have that one> Networking was DARPA et al, OOPS Norwegian/UNIVAC WYSIWYG is a synonym > of GUI HTML from CERN> None of these are from Linux as innovations!>
Come on there must be something we didn't have untill Linux introduced > it to us!
how about a full development environment, fully customisable UI, fully customisable bundled application software, all for $0 pricetag...?
Ready-made custom builds, ready-to-go for specific applicaiton environments (Dyne:Bolic for A/V work, Knoppix for rescue/demo/fastest full GUI install going, Debian for the sheer volume of software), massive user/developer /community/ rather than paid shills for technical support...?
Autoconfiguring, highly scalable clusters, scalable NFS, stable and affordable server farms, continued support for older hardware that would otherwise be landfill...?
I could go on but it's 2am and I need sleep.
-- Cheers,
Jim
-begin sig- Opinions expressed in this message may or may not be representative of the opinions of its author. You decide. Linux is not /user-friendly/. It *is* user-friendly. It is not ignorant-friendly, nor is it idiot-friendly.
Lets have a list of features, useful apps which first appeared on Linux,> Im thinking like Apple had HyperCard, BSD had ports first, windows> had...let me think er scrollwheel on mice!(Im pretty much at a loss to> think if M$ ever did anyting else original and stand with asbestos pants> ready to learn that perhaps even here they where less than original; but> it must be said they certainly got it to market)> But where is Linux innovation, all the CLI stuff is UNIX, X11 is not> Linux, a list would be nice>
Mrs Dogbreath
perhaps:
Gentoo's `emerge` that allows the end user to build a system that is compiled specifically to the hardware they own relatively easily.
distributions like BBC that can be burned and booted from a business card CDrom.
apt-get or urpmi that allow for easy install of applications over the internet.
Masked.Slacker@Gmail.Com 6 June 2005 05:33:42 [ permanent link ]
probability2003@uku.co.uk wrote:> > There hasn't been any major innovation in OS design in the past 20 years...>
Mr Slacker,>
How quickly you forgot about the Microsoft scroll-wheel mouse.<g>>
My list of useful things would include (in no particular order)>
GUI - Including toolbars, menus, etc. (increased usability to make> computers more accessible to non tech users)
More than 20 years old.
Plug and play
Possible exception, I'd have to check on that, but you're probably right on this one.
Ubiquitous networking
More than 20 years old.> WYSIWYG composition.
Not an OS innovation.
Object Oriented programming languages
More than 20 years old, and not an OS innovation
HTML
Not an OS innovation
Computer Multimedia - (paved the way for digital cameras, MP3, digital> camcorders, non-linear editing, special effects, etc.)
Not an OS innovation.
Email (despite the spam)
More than 20 years old> and of course... that famous scroll-wheel mouse!
Not an OS innovation.
Again, I stand by what I said there have been no major OPERATING SYSTEM innovations in the past 20 years (possible exception plug and play). However, implementation of things like Email and networking has skyrocketed. You can easily say there has been innovation in implementation, but not in design.
Paul Hovnanian P.E. 6 June 2005 06:49:27 [ permanent link ]
Gordon Ramsy wrote:>
Lets have a list of features, useful apps which first appeared on Linux,> Im thinking like Apple had HyperCard, BSD had ports first, windows> had...let me think er scrollwheel on mice!(Im pretty much at a loss to> think if M$ ever did anyting else original and stand with asbestos pants> ready to learn that perhaps even here they where less than original; but> it must be said they certainly got it to market)> But where is Linux innovation, all the CLI stuff is UNIX, X11 is not> Linux, a list would be nice
Google
-- Paul Hovnanian mailtoaul@Hovnanian.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Sacred cows make the best hamburger. -- Mark Twain
Actually, Plug-and-Play was actually a Linux innovation. Yddragasil (sic) Linux was the first to introduce this feature. It had the ability to probe, identify, and configure driver modules based on probes of peripherals installed on the bus.
What made Linux PnP interesting was that Linux Pnp supported VESA/VLB, ISA, EISA, Microchannel/MCA, and several other popular busses. Furthermore, Linux PnP did NOT rely on proprietary and undocumented identification codes available only on the PCI bus.
This approach made it possible for Linux to very quickly install on a number of windows systems that wouldn't even run Windows 95. PnP Linux was quickly adopted and enhanced by Red Hat Linux in their Holloween release (October 1994, and Mother's Day release in May of 1995).
The Red Hat Package Manager was one of the first package managers to not only unpack and install the software, but also to check for the presence of other dependency packages. This is a feature which often annoys Linux users who know that certain libraries available as newer versions are not recognized by RPM as acceptable.
It has been said that when Bill Gates of Microsoft first saw Plug-and-Play Linux, he stopped the "Chicago" (Windows 95) development team in it's tracks and said "We don't release until we have PnP that does NOT work on Linux". The one thing that is known is that Windows was initially slated to be released in early 1995 and wasn't released at all until August, and wasn't stable until the release of Windows 95 SE in March or April of 1996.
Yddragasil> (sic) Linux was the first to introduce this feature. It had the> ability to probe, identify, and configure driver modules based on> probes of peripherals installed on the bus.>
What made Linux PnP interesting was that Linux Pnp supported VESA/VLB,> ISA, EISA, Microchannel/MCA, and several other popular busses.> Furthermore, Linux PnP did NOT rely on proprietary and undocumented> identification codes available only on the PCI bus.>
This approach made it possible for Linux to very quickly install on a> number of windows systems that wouldn't even run Windows 95. PnP> Linux was quickly adopted and enhanced by Red Hat Linux in their> Holloween release (October 1994, and Mother's Day release in May of> 1995).>
The Red Hat Package Manager was one of the first package managers to> not only unpack and install the software, but also to check for the> presence of other dependency packages. This is a feature which often> annoys Linux users who know that certain libraries available as newer> versions are not recognized by RPM as acceptable.>
It has been said that when Bill Gates of Microsoft first saw> Plug-and-Play Linux, he stopped the "Chicago" (Windows 95)> development team in it's tracks and said "We don't release until we> have PnP that does NOT work on Linux".
Is that so? Who said that?
The one thing that is known> is that Windows was initially slated to be released in early 1995 and> wasn't released at all until August, and wasn't stable until the> release of Windows 95 SE in March or April of 1996.
It's also known that approx. 10 years elapsed between the first Linux release and it's acceptance as a workable desktop solution (many people still feel it's not acceptable). During that 10 years, MS grew to command 96% or 97% of the PC desktop market.
On 2005-06-06, r.e.ballard@usa.net <r.e.ballard@usa.net> wrote:> Actually, Plug-and-Play was actually a Linux innovation. Yddragasil> (sic) Linux was the first to introduce this feature. It had the> ability to probe, identify, and configure driver modules based on> probes of peripherals installed on the bus.
Do you have any evidence of this at all? I did a google search, and you are the only one I can find that even claims this, yet, I can find a number of articles related to Macs (specifically the Macintosh II).
I don't believe this was MS innovation, but I can find NO evidence that this was a linux one either.
Yddragasil> > (sic) Linux was the first to introduce this feature. It had the> > ability to probe, identify, and configure driver modules based on> > probes of peripherals installed on the bus.> >
What made Linux PnP interesting was that Linux Pnp supported VESA/VLB,> > ISA, EISA, Microchannel/MCA, and several other popular busses.> > Furthermore, Linux PnP did NOT rely on proprietary and undocumented> > identification codes available only on the PCI bus.> >
This approach made it possible for Linux to very quickly install on a> > number of windows systems that wouldn't even run Windows 95. PnP> > Linux was quickly adopted and enhanced by Red Hat Linux in their> > Holloween release (October 1994, and Mother's Day release in May of> > 1995).> >
The Red Hat Package Manager was one of the first package managers to> > not only unpack and install the software, but also to check for the> > presence of other dependency packages. This is a feature which often> > annoys Linux users who know that certain libraries available as newer> > versions are not recognized by RPM as acceptable.> >
It has been said that when Bill Gates of Microsoft first saw> > Plug-and-Play Linux, he stopped the "Chicago" (Windows 95)> > development team in it's tracks and said "We don't release until we> > have PnP that does NOT work on Linux".>
Is that so? Who said that?>
The one thing that is known> > is that Windows was initially slated to be released in early 1995 and> > wasn't released at all until August, and wasn't stable until the> > release of Windows 95 SE in March or April of 1996.>
It's also known that approx. 10 years elapsed between the first Linux> release and it's acceptance as a workable desktop solution (many people> still feel it's not acceptable). During that 10 years, MS grew to command> 96% or 97% of the PC desktop market.
It's 100% in taiwan. Here only the mentally-ill and brainless nationalists use linux (hell, I ever fighted against them but failed).
In article <1118038113.927955.86350@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, r.e.ballard@usa.net wrote:> > > Lets have a list of features, useful apps which first appeared on Linux,>
Modules for *nix.
No and no. PnP was in Macs long before Linux. As for modules (assuming you are talking about kernel modules), we had them in 386/ix at Interactive in 1988.
WINE
Yes.
Virtual Machines for Windows.> Boot Manager without MS restrictions.
No and no.
First to support 1 Gig ethernet on PC.> First to support ATM on PC.
I doubt both of these.
First to support Public Internet on PC.> First to support Web Browsing on PC.> First to support Terminal Servers on PC.> First to support Web Servers on PC.> First to support *nix with FULL X11 on PC.> First to support X11R6 on PC.
No to all of these.
First to support CORBA on PC.
I don't know about this one.
First to support Network Boot on PC (AKA Thin Client).
No.
First to support Dynamic IP config on PC (RARP).
I'm not sure what you think RARP has to do with dynamic IP config, so I'm not sure if this should get a "no" or a "no and no".
In article <42a3f220$0$159$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk>, Peter Jensen <usenet@pekajemaps.homeip.net> wrote:> > Come on there must be something we didn't have untill Linux introduced> > it to us!>
How about Knoppix and other CDs like it?
This will depend on what it is that you consider special about Knoppix. If it is having a complete system on a CD, then that is not new. Back in the old days, when CDs were *bigger* than hard disks, it was simple on Macs to make a CD that had a copy of your entire hard disc and was bootable.
However, hard disks got bigger than CDs, and software got very much bigger, and the notion of reasonably complete bootable CDs died out, until Knoppix.
So, if we qualify it and say Knoppix is special for squeezing today's much bigger systems down to a CD, then it might indeed count.
Amazing! What a guy!.... ?!?!.... I mean, what a gal!... uh uh...>>
Obviously his talents made you squeal...>
Actually, yes; his "talents" (pathological narcissism and lying) do leave me> chuckling a bit.>
but look, the guy singlehandedly invented the Internet, brought Linux to the masses, sold IBM on developing Linux and instigated several successful class action lawsuits against Microsoft! There're some people who'd be interested in this snippet...
COUGHCOUGHBULLSHITCOUGHCOUGH!
-- Cheers,
Jim
-begin sig- Opinions expressed in this message may or may not be representative of the opinions of its author. You decide. Linux is not /user-friendly/. It *is* user-friendly. It is not ignorant-friendly, nor is it idiot-friendly.
Don't encumber Rex Ballard with facts. He's more of a Jazz musician, riffing off of reality to make it his own.
-- "Rob Enderle [predicts] that Longhorn will provide 'vast improvements in security.' We can cheer this happy prospect, but at the same time we must ignore the snide laughs of Macintosh users who have yet to encounter a virus..." -- New York Times
begin OEKillFileMe.vbs It was on Mon, 06 Jun 2005 03:23:37 -0400, that DFS was seen to write:
<snip> You thought that without M$ we wouldn't be able to post to Usenet. Remember this DooFu$ ?
"If it weren't for Windows, you wouldn't be posting anything right now." DFS aka DorkForSure aka DooFu$ - comp.os.linux.advocacy Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004
-- When I hear of a long time smoker dying of lung cancer I think "That's too bad, but they made their choices". When I hear about companies gettings screwed by Microsoft, I think the same thing. -- Anon
In article <4uNoe.69138$VH2.16397@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>, billwg wrote:> If there are truly deficiencies in Windows, they are opportunities for > add-ons that fix those deficiencies.
Ask Stacker about that kind of thing. You *can* do it in a technical sense, but if you do, Microsoft can just clone it and shut you down. There's no profit motive.
-- Sincerely,
Ray Ingles (313) 227-2317
"One of the main reasons for the downfall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way to indicate successful termination of their C programs." - Robert Firth
In article <reply_in_group-048BC0.00463806062005@news1.west.earthlink.net>, Tim Smith wrote:> This will depend on what it is that you consider special about Knoppix. > If it is having a complete system on a CD, then that is not new. Back > in the old days, when CDs were *bigger* than hard disks, it was simple > on Macs to make a CD that had a copy of your entire hard disc and was > bootable.
Huh. I had heard that this was used for installing the OS onto a hard disk, but I hadn't heard of anyone making a practical use out of it beyond that. Not even really a 'rescue' CD. I'd be interested to hear more about this. Roughly what timeframe are we talking about? I'm assuming late 80's/early 90's?
-- Sincerely,
Ray Ingles (313) 227-2317
"Capitalism works primarily because most of the ways that a company can be scum end up being extremely bad for business when there's working competition." -rra
Lets have a list of features, useful apps which first appeared on Linux,> Im thinking like Apple had HyperCard, BSD had ports first, windows> had...let me think er scrollwheel on mice!(Im pretty much at a loss to> think if M$ ever did anyting else original and stand with asbestos pants> ready to learn that perhaps even here they where less than original; but> it must be said they certainly got it to market)> But where is Linux innovation, all the CLI stuff is UNIX, X11 is not> Linux, a list would be nice
This is a very interesting question but the answer is a bit more complex than you may be expecting.
"Linux" or more specifically, GNU/Linux is an OS, but it is an OS built on a phylosophy of the sharing. The Linux kernel is one piece of a larger GNU whole. When people use the canonical phrase "Linux" they mean GNU/Linux, but really see just GNU.
The GNU suite of tools, if not innovative, certainly revolutionary. It has allowed BSD and Linux to be ported to easily to many platforms. It has allowed devices like Linksys' wireless routers to sell so cheaply. It has allowed cluster computers to thrive.
As for the free and open software development community, virtualy everything you see on computers today has been developed this way.
As for the scroll mouse, Microsoft didn't really invent that, AFIR someone modded the X axis on a standard mouse. It was posted as a HOWTO and logitech and Microsoft thought "Wow! what a great idea."
Tim Smith wrote:> In article <1118038113.927955.86350@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,> r.e.ballard@usa.net wrote:> > > > Lets have a list of features, useful apps which first appeared on Linux,> >
Modules for *nix.>
No and no. PnP was in Macs long before Linux.
OK. I should have qualified that one too. PnP for PCs. And by PCs I mean the commonly available hodgepodge of Intel based machines used to run Windows.
As for modules (assuming> you are talking about kernel modules), we had them in 386/ix at> Interactive in 1988.
Linux was one of the first versions of *nix to have modules that could be dynamically loaded based on probes of hardware.
Interactive had something more like a dynamic linker, but you had to manually configure the modules to be loaded.
WINE
Yes.>
Virtual Machines for Windows.> > Boot Manager without MS restrictions.>
No and no.
The driving force for most Virtual Machine software, including VMWare, Bochs, and Concentric was Linux. It wasn't developed by the Linux community per se, but was developed with the original goal of running Linux.
The boot manager was very carefully worded. OS/2 had a boot manager, and this made it possible to boot either OS/2 or Windows, but these were subject to Microsoft Restrictions which prevented public disclosures. Linux provided one of the first boot managers which was free of Microsoft Restrictions, which made it possible to boot Linux, OS/2, Windows, MS-DOS, and a few others. Prior to the introduction of Linux, Boot managers that booted multiple operating systems weren't really practical or necessary. OS/2 had the ability to run Windows 3.1 applications directly from OS/2.
Microsoft had a boot manager but it only allowed you to boot what Microsoft wanted you to boot. You could boot MS-DOS, and then start Windows if desired.
First to support 1 Gig ethernet on PC.> > First to support ATM on PC.>
I doubt both of these.
Actually, these were two where Linux got the jump on Windows. UNIX makers already had these, and CISCO routers had them. Of course, Linux was very easy to port because 3-COM was already quite familiar with Linux. In fact, 3-com was one of the first companies to support Linux, and very quickly began testing and debugging on Linux before moving on to Windows.
First to support Public Internet on PC.
Most other products, including Chameleon, TCP/IP for Netware, and so on were focused on corporate TCP/IP networks. Most did not even support SLIP and PPP.
Linux on the other hand, was actually designed to support public internet services through support for functions such as SLIP, AX.25, and more.
First to support Web Browsing on PC.
Keep in mind that Linux had support for Web browsing back when the web browsers were Lynx and Viola, before Cello. Furthermore, Linux included these functions as part of even the earliest distributions. Linux had support for Viola back in 1992.
First to support Terminal Servers on PC.
Interactive did have a simple version of a terminal server, but it wasn't really designed to support the traffic encountered by POPs. Linux on the other hand actually had the infrastructure for a real terminal server, complete with router, firewall, interfaces to X.25, SLIP, PPP, and network address translation.
First to support Web Servers on PC.
The CERN http server was originally implemented on UNIX, mostly BSD and Solaris. Linux had the memory management and kernel support to enable hundreds of users to access a single web server. Again, this dates back to early 1993, including SLS and Slackware Linux. Most of these prototypes were quickly ported back up to Solaris, but Linux was running on cheap PC hardware.
First to support *nix with FULL X11 on PC.
Actually, that isn't accurate. Both Interactive and SCO Unix had support for X11 on a PC, but of course this added nearly $500 to the price tag. Typically, a complete Interactive or SCO implementation would cost over $3000, not including hardware. Furthermore, the PC had to be pretty well restricted to some very specific hardware. Dell made a really nice SCO box, and IBM made a really nice Interactive Box. Sun had Solaris 386 but the Sun hardware that it ran on wasn't a true PC environment. Unfortunately, the lack of support for the rapidly evolving Intel hardware pretty much killed Sun/386.
First to support X11R6 on PC.
This one I'm pretty sure of. X11R6 was an Open Source project, and while most other corporations were still primarily focused on getting X11R4 to the general market, or had pretty much given up on the desktop, Linux was pushing the envelope along with Sun. Sun was very big on getting Postscript and other features from NeWS into X11 and Linux developers were happy to participate.
Xfree was very focused on X11R6 and tried to implement all of the features required to serve both Motif and Olit clients as well as all other ICCCM based applications.
No to all of these.>
First to support CORBA on PC.
This one is also pretty clear. Linux had support for MICO very early in the game, as well as some of the other very early implementations. CORBA was eventually implemented in JAVA and is well known as Enterprise Java Beans or J2EE. Linux is still a good way to implement CORBA on platforms other than Java.
I don't know about this one.>
First to support Network Boot on PC (AKA Thin Client).> No.
Sun was the first to implement Thin Client, but they were very helpful in providing this technology to Linux. Other systems still required hard drives. Novell had the ability to boot from the network card, but only booted netware clients - specifically MS-DOS clients.
First to support Dynamic IP config on PC (RARP).>
I'm not sure what you think RARP has to do with dynamic IP config, so> I'm not sure if this should get a "no" or a "no and no".
RARP was available for UNIX, and was commonly used by Solaris. Again, Linux had this feature. In addition, Linux servers had the ability to create new IP addresses and the ability to assign them. I believe this was a feature of Slackware 1.0 provided features similar to DHCP without the security flaw of destroying IP addresses once they timed out.
Microsoft introduced DHCP in WFW about 3-6 months later.
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:18:13 -0700, Ralph assert()ed:> Gordon Ramsy wrote:>
Lets have a list of features, useful apps which first appeared on Linux,>> Im thinking like Apple had HyperCard, BSD had ports first, windows>> had...let me think er scrollwheel on mice!(Im pretty much at a loss to>> think if M$ ever did anyting else original and stand with asbestos pants>> ready to learn that perhaps even here they where less than original; but>> it must be said they certainly got it to market)>> But where is Linux innovation, all the CLI stuff is UNIX, X11 is not>> Linux, a list would be nice>>
Mrs Dogbreath>
perhaps:>
Gentoo's `emerge` that allows the end user to build a system that is> compiled specifically to the hardware they own relatively easily.
That's the same as BSD ports, which the OP specifically mentioned.
distributions like BBC that can be burned and booted from a business card> CDrom.
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:18:13 -0700, Ralph assert()ed:>> Gordon Ramsy wrote:>>
Lets have a list of features, useful apps which first appeared on Linux,>>> Im thinking like Apple had HyperCard, BSD had ports first, windows>>> had...let me think er scrollwheel on mice!(Im pretty much at a loss to>>> think if M$ ever did anyting else original and stand with asbestos pants>>> ready to learn that perhaps even here they where less than original; but>>> it must be said they certainly got it to market)>>> But where is Linux innovation, all the CLI stuff is UNIX, X11 is not>>> Linux, a list would be nice>>>
Mrs Dogbreath>>
perhaps:>>
Gentoo's `emerge` that allows the end user to build a system that is>> compiled specifically to the hardware they own relatively easily.>
That's the same as BSD ports, which the OP specifically mentioned.
Still an OSS innovation.
distributions like BBC that can be burned and booted from a business card>> Carom.>
QNX had a bootable floppy before that.
Bootable floppies have had the OS alone for YEARS. Have a look at BBC, it is designed to allow the end user to build the distribution they want on the business card. QNX is just not the same as BBC which is a more powerfull full featured PC OS WITH applications
On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 07:42:06 -0700, Ralph assert()ed:> GeneralPF wrote:>
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:18:13 -0700, Ralph assert()ed:>>> Gordon Ramsy wrote:>>>
Lets have a list of features, useful apps which first appeared on Linux,>>>> Im thinking like Apple had HyperCard, BSD had ports first, windows>>>> had...let me think er scrollwheel on mice!(Im pretty much at a loss to>>>> think if M$ ever did anyting else original and stand with asbestos pants>>>> ready to learn that perhaps even here they where less than original; but>>>> it must be said they certainly got it to market)>>>> But where is Linux innovation, all the CLI stuff is UNIX, X11 is not>>>> Linux, a list would be nice>>>>
Mrs Dogbreath>>>
perhaps:>>>
Gentoo's `emerge` that allows the end user to build a system that is>>> compiled specifically to the hardware they own relatively easily.>>
That's the same as BSD ports, which the OP specifically mentioned.>
Still an OSS innovation.
So? The subject is "Linux innovations", of which a ports-style system is NOT one. Please read the topic.
distributions like BBC that can be burned and booted from a business card>>> Carom.>>
QNX had a bootable floppy before that.>
Bootable floppies have had the OS alone for YEARS. Have a look at BBC, it is> designed to allow the end user to build the distribution they want on the> business card. QNX is just not the same as BBC which is a more powerfull> full featured PC OS WITH applications
On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 07:42:06 -0700, Ralph assert()ed:>> GeneralPF wrote:>>
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:18:13 -0700, Ralph assert()ed:>>>> Gordon Ramsy wrote:>>>>
Lets have a list of features, useful apps which first appeared on>>>>> Linux, Im thinking like Apple had HyperCard, BSD had ports first,>>>>> windows had...let me think er scrollwheel on mice!(Im pretty much at a>>>>> loss to think if M$ ever did anyting else original and stand with>>>>> asbestos pants ready to learn that perhaps even here they where less>>>>> than original; but it must be said they certainly got it to market)>>>>> But where is Linux innovation, all the CLI stuff is UNIX, X11 is not>>>>> Linux, a list would be nice>>>>>
Mrs Dogbreath>>>>
perhaps:>>>>
Gentoo's `emerge` that allows the end user to build a system that is>>>> compiled specifically to the hardware they own relatively easily.>>>
That's the same as BSD ports, which the OP specifically mentioned.>>
Still an OSS innovation.>
So? The subject is "Linux innovations", of which a ports-style system> is NOT one. Please read the topic.>
distributions like BBC that can be burned and booted from a business>>>> card Carom.>>>
QNX had a bootable floppy before that.>>
Bootable floppies have had the OS alone for YEARS. Have a look at BBC, it>> is designed to allow the end user to build the distribution they want on>> the business card. QNX is just not the same as BBC which is a more>> powerfull full featured PC OS WITH applications>
On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 09:14:08 -0700, Ralph assert()ed:> GeneralPF wrote:>
On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 07:42:06 -0700, Ralph assert()ed:>>> GeneralPF wrote:>>>
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:18:13 -0700, Ralph assert()ed:>>>>> Gordon Ramsy wrote:>>>>>
Lets have a list of features, useful apps which first appeared on>>>>>> Linux, Im thinking like Apple had HyperCard, BSD had ports first,>>>>>> windows had...let me think er scrollwheel on mice!(Im pretty much at a>>>>>> loss to think if M$ ever did anyting else original and stand with>>>>>> asbestos pants ready to learn that perhaps even here they where less>>>>>> than original; but it must be said they certainly got it to market)>>>>>> But where is Linux innovation, all the CLI stuff is UNIX, X11 is not>>>>>> Linux, a list would be nice>>>>>>
Mrs Dogbreath>>>>>
perhaps:>>>>>
Gentoo's `emerge` that allows the end user to build a system that is>>>>> compiled specifically to the hardware they own relatively easily.>>>>
That's the same as BSD ports, which the OP specifically mentioned.>>>
Still an OSS innovation.>>
So? The subject is "Linux innovations", of which a ports-style system>> is NOT one. Please read the topic.>>
distributions like BBC that can be burned and booted from a business>>>>> card Carom.>>>>
QNX had a bootable floppy before that.>>>
Bootable floppies have had the OS alone for YEARS. Have a look at BBC, it>>> is designed to allow the end user to build the distribution they want on>>> the business card. QNX is just not the same as BBC which is a more>>> powerfull full featured PC OS WITH applications>>
It has utilities, not applications.>
BBC? You may want to take another look.
I did. The closest thing to an "application" is a CLI BitTorrent client.
On 2005-06-06, Tom Shelton <tshelton@YOUKNOWTHEDRILLcomcast.net> wrote:> On 2005-06-06, r.e.ballard@usa.net <r.e.ballard@usa.net> wrote:>> Actually, Plug-and-Play was actually a Linux innovation. Yddragasil>> (sic) Linux was the first to introduce this feature. It had the>> ability to probe, identify, and configure driver modules based on>> probes of peripherals installed on the bus.>
Do you have any evidence of this at all? I did a google search, and you> are the only one I can find that even claims this, yet, I can find a> number of articles related to Macs (specifically the Macintosh II).>
I don't believe this was MS innovation, but I can find NO evidence that> this was a linux one either.
Well, what kind of ISA hardware did the Apple solution do successful PnP for? If you allow for small closed systems, there are probably examples of PnP that even predate Apple.
On the given hardware type, Linux was there before Microsoft and Apple wasn't even in the same sort of domain.
-- The best OS in the world is ultimately useless ||| if it is controlled by a Tramiel, Jobs or Gates. / | \
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:16:32 -0500, Tom Shelton <tshelton@YOUKNOWTHEDRILLcomcast.net> wrote:> On 2005-06-06, r.e.ballard@usa.net <r.e.ballard@usa.net> wrote:>> Actually, Plug-and-Play was actually a Linux innovation. Yddragasil>> (sic) Linux was the first to introduce this feature. It had the>> ability to probe, identify, and configure driver modules based on>> probes of peripherals installed on the bus.>
Do you have any evidence of this at all? I did a google search, and you> are the only one I can find that even claims this, yet, I can find a> number of articles related to Macs (specifically the Macintosh II).>
I don't believe this was MS innovation, but I can find NO evidence that> this was a linux one either.>
The Amiga did the same thing, although I couldn't tell you if that predated the Apple implementation of it or not, stemming from the Amiga 2000 at least, and possibly the 1000 (Zorro I bus, on the side)
On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 10:31:59 -0700, jabailo@texeme.com assert()ed:> Jim wrote:>
but look, the guy singlehandedly invented the Internet, brought Linux to >> the masses, sold IBM on developing Linux and instigated several >> successful class action lawsuits against Microsoft! There're some people >> who'd be interested in this snippet...>
You know...I find that a lot of the people who post to this newgroup > (the legitimate posters) are often people with significant credentials > -- much more than you would think.
Okay, this guy is the Forrest Gump of the PC world. He claims to have been behind every significant event in computing history. As if he turned a wire protocol over to Sun who made "minor changes" and turned it into Java. And it's oh-so-convenient that he used figureheads for all his accomplishments to avoid fame and all its trappings. Bull$hit.
On 5 Jun 2005 18:33:42 -0700, masked.slacker@gmail.com <masked.slacker@gmail.com> wrote:>
probability2003@uku.co.uk wrote:>> > There hasn't been any major innovation in OS design in the past 20 years...>>
Mr Slacker,>>
How quickly you forgot about the Microsoft scroll-wheel mouse.<g>>>
My list of useful things would include (in no particular order)>>
GUI - Including toolbars, menus, etc. (increased usability to make>> computers more accessible to non tech users)>
More than 20 years old.>
Plug and play>
Possible exception, I'd have to check on that, but you're probably> right on this one.>
Ubiquitous networking>
More than 20 years old.>> WYSIWYG composition.>
Not an OS innovation.>
Object Oriented programming languages>
More than 20 years old, and not an OS innovation>
HTML>
Not an OS innovation>
Computer Multimedia - (paved the way for digital cameras, MP3, digital>> camcorders, non-linear editing, special effects, etc.)>
Not an OS innovation.>
Email (despite the spam)>
More than 20 years old>> and of course... that famous scroll-wheel mouse!>
Not an OS innovation.>
Again, I stand by what I said there have been no major OPERATING SYSTEM> innovations in the past 20 years (possible exception plug and play).> However, implementation of things like Email and networking has> skyrocketed. You can easily say there has been innovation in> implementation, but not in design.>
Actually, there's been a lot, but it's mostly stuff at the next-to-the metal level. VM architecture, kernel modules, I don't think they are 20 years old. (although Linux is of course, not the first OS to use them). The /proc and sysctl systems of Linux (and in the latter case, BSD, Solaris too IIRC) NUMA and clusters, certainly less than 20 yo. Especially the off the shelf clusters, grab a bunch of PIV machines, and cable them up, boot them from a clusterknoppix CD, and you have a cluster.
-- Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock "I think you should defend to the death their right to march, and then go down and meet them with baseball bats." -- Woody Allen, on the KKK
The boot manager was very carefully worded.> OS/2 had a boot manager, and this made it possible to boot either OS/2> or Windows, but these were subject to Microsoft Restrictions which> prevented public disclosures. Linux provided one of the first boot> managers which was free of Microsoft Restrictions, which made it> possible to boot Linux, OS/2, Windows, MS-DOS, and a few others. Prior> to the introduction of Linux, Boot managers that booted multiple> operating systems weren't really practical or necessary. OS/2 had the> ability to run Windows 3.1 applications directly from OS/2.
I'm not so sure about this one - what about System commander or the boot loader supplied with Mark Williams company's Coherent Operating system (an early 286 PC Unix) - maybe Minix or BSD had a boot manager for PC before Linux as well?
In article <slrnda8ial.ook.sorceror@dmc22317.local>, Ray Ingles <sorceror@dmc22317.local> wrote:> > This will depend on what it is that you consider special about Knoppix. > > If it is having a complete system on a CD, then that is not new. Back > > in the old days, when CDs were *bigger* than hard disks, it was simple > > on Macs to make a CD that had a copy of your entire hard disc and was > > bootable.>
Huh. I had heard that this was used for installing the OS onto a> hard disk, but I hadn't heard of anyone making a practical use out of> it beyond that. Not even really a 'rescue' CD. I'd be interested to> hear more about this. Roughly what timeframe are we talking about?> I'm assuming late 80's/early 90's?
Right, late 80's through early 90's. As far as booting was concerned, the Mac didn't care whether you were booting off of a CD or hard disk. It just looked for a block device that had a bootable HFS partition.
So, if you took any hard disk that was bootable, and simple made an HFS CD out of it, you ended up with a bootable CD that had all the applications and files from that hard disk.
Probably the reason you didn't see live CDs take off like they did with Knoppix was that there was no point on the Mac. On the PC, there are plenty of situations where you might want to temporarily turn, say, a Windows box into a Linux box. Knoppix is great there. Or you might want to try out versions of KDE or something later than what is on your Linux box, and if Knoppix has those new versions, it is a quick easy way to do this. It's a great way to check hardware compatibility, too...when my sound card did not work in SuSE 9.1, I booted Knoppix, where sound worked, and then checked to see what modules it was using. I then forced SuSE to use those modules, and sound worked on SuSE.
On Macs in the 80's and 90's, there generally wasn't much need to turn a Mac temporarily into a Mac.
"Ray Ingles" <sorceror@dmc22317.local> wrote in message news:slrnda8uih.pfj.sorceror@dmc22317.local...
I may be the same kind you are. Why are *you* still drawing a salary?>
Wiggle all you want, Ray, but your point is shown to be silly. I said that Microsoft has created a lot of opportunity for others and you say that is not so because a couple of guys only got some $100M bucks out of their couple of years effort and so that proves that the profit motive has been lost!
Gordon Ramsy blithely blithered> Lets have a list of features, useful apps which first appeared on Linux,> Im thinking like Apple had HyperCard, BSD had ports first, windows> had...let me think er scrollwheel on mice!(Im pretty much at a loss to> think if M$ ever did anyting else original and stand with asbestos pants> ready to learn that perhaps even here they where less than original; but> it must be said they certainly got it to market)> But where is Linux innovation, all the CLI stuff is UNIX, X11 is not> Linux, a list would be nice>
Mrs Dogbreath
As OSS kernel.
-- Murder is contrary to the laws of man and God. -- M-5 Computer, "The Ultimate Computer", stardate 4731.3
begin In <1118015033.242396.29680@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, on 06/05/2005 at 04:43 PM, probability2003@uku.co.uk said:
My list of useful things would include (in no particular order)
He wrote "major innovation in OS design" and "in the past 20 years"; most of what you list is neither. Don't confuse wide dissemination with innovation.
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begin In <1118019727.796125.164400@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, on 06/05/2005 at 06:02 PM, probability2003@uku.co.uk said:
DARPA/ARPAnet for example is much more than 20 years old but it>wasn't until recently that it became ubiquitous. So that's why I>listed it. And while Xerox invented the GUI
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begin In <1118028636.342317.129620@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, on 06/05/2005 at 08:30 PM, r.e.ballard@usa.net said:
It has been said that when Bill Gates of Microsoft first saw>Plug-and-Play Linux, he stopped the "Chicago" (Windows 95)>development team in it's tracks and said "We don't release until we>have PnP that does NOT work on Linux".
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begin In <1118038113.927955.86350@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, on 06/05/2005 at 11:08 PM, r.e.ballard@usa.net said:
WINE>Virtual Machines for Windows.
Wasn't WinOS2 first?
Boot Manager without MS restrictions.
Wasn't the OS/2 Boot Manager first?
First to support Terminal Servers on PC.
Weren't ARCnet, Novell and Communications Manager there first?
First to support CORBA on PC.
Wasn't SOM there first?
Agreed, there were many features that were first available on UNIX>workstations costing nearly $25,000 per user, but Linux was the>first to make these features available on PCs, many costing less>than $1000.
Xenix and IX/PC made at least some of them available much earlier.
It wasn't until IBM tried to introduce Microchannel and scuttle all >previous technology that the Industry decided not to follow.
It wasn't the introduction of MCA per se; it was the refusal to license MCA to anybody that didn't also pay otherwise unnecessary license fees for ISA that made the MCA a pariah.
This not only triggered a reluctance to accept Microchannel, but >also created distrust of OS/2.
IBM was attempting to convince people interested in OS/2 to buy a PS/2 to run it on. They didn't emphasize that it ran just fine on a PC/AT while they were waiting for the PS/2 to be available.
This was a generation who saw that anything is possible if enough>people can be motivated to participate. It was these people who>then took Microprocessors, developed as a side-effect of the NASA>Space program,
Huh? What was the connection between NASA and the 4004?
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In article <9K6pe.69693$VH2.29151@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>, billwg wrote:> "Ray Ingles" <sorceror@dmc22317.local> wrote in message > news:slrnda8uih.pfj.sorceror@dmc22317.local...>
I may be the same kind you are. Why are *you* still drawing a salary?>
Wiggle all you want, Ray, but your point is shown to be silly. I said that > Microsoft has created a lot of opportunity for others and you say that is > not so because a couple of guys only got some $100M bucks out of their > couple of years effort and so that proves that the profit motive has been > lost!
*You* talk about wiggling? They got $100M because they won a *patent infringment lawsuit*. Microsoft was found guilty of illegally trying to *steal* their stuff. I repeat, is a lawsuit against Microsoft part of *your* business plan?
People who add functionality to Windows do so *only* at the sufferance of Microsoft, who has shown multiple times that they can, and will, simply *take* that market as soon as it's profitable.
-- Sincerely,
Ray Ingles (313) 227-2317
"Wirth made a language acclaimed in theory, but useless in practice. He appropriately named it after the guy who came up with 'Pascal's Wager'." - Dunbar the Inept, on Slashdot
On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 09:14:08 -0700, Ralph assert()ed:>> GeneralPF wrote:>>
On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 07:42:06 -0700, Ralph assert()ed:>>>> GeneralPF wrote:>>>>
On Sun, 05 Jun 2005 18:18:13 -0700, Ralph assert()ed:>>>>>> Gordon Ramsy wrote:>>>>>>
Lets have a list of features, useful apps which first appeared on>>>>>>> Linux, Im thinking like Apple had HyperCard, BSD had ports first,>>>>>>> windows had...let me think er scrollwheel on mice!(Im pretty much at>>>>>>> a loss to think if M$ ever did anyting else original and stand with>>>>>>> asbestos pants ready to learn that perhaps even here they where less>>>>>>> than original; but it must be said they certainly got it to market)>>>>>>> But where is Linux innovation, all the CLI stuff is UNIX, X11 is not>>>>>>> Linux, a list would be nice>>>>>>>
Mrs Dogbreath>>>>>>
perhaps:>>>>>>
Gentoo's `emerge` that allows the end user to build a system that is>>>>>> compiled specifically to the hardware they own relatively easily.>>>>>
That's the same as BSD ports, which the OP specifically mentioned.>>>>
Still an OSS innovation.>>>
So? The subject is "Linux innovations", of which a ports-style system>>> is NOT one. Please read the topic.>>>
distributions like BBC that can be burned and booted from a business>>>>>> card Carom.>>>>>
QNX had a bootable floppy before that.>>>>
Bootable floppies have had the OS alone for YEARS. Have a look at BBC,>>>> it is designed to allow the end user to build the distribution they>>>> want on the business card. QNX is just not the same as BBC which is a>>>> more powerfull full featured PC OS WITH applications>>>
It has utilities, not applications.>>
BBC? You may want to take another look.>
I did. The closest thing to an "application" is a CLI BitTorrent client.>
In article <reply_in_group-04DCCE.17284406062005@news1.west.earthlink.net>, Tim Smith wrote:> Probably the reason you didn't see live CDs take off like they did with > Knoppix was that there was no point on the Mac.
The CD drives were also slower than the hard drives then. Even a 4X CD-ROM can only serve data at about 600KB/sec. Plus CD writers weren't exactly a common household item, either.
-- Sincerely,
Ray Ingles (313) 227-2317
"Frustrated? Don't throw your computers out the window, throw the Windows out of your computer!" - Anonymous
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:
at 08:30 PM, r.e.ballard@usa.net said:>
It has been said that when Bill Gates of Microsoft first saw>>Plug-and-Play Linux, he stopped the "Chicago" (Windows 95)>>development team in it's tracks and said "We don't release until we>>have PnP that does NOT work on Linux". >
"DOS isn't done 'till Lotus won't run."
Windows ain't done 'til Samba won't run.
-- When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
begin In <1118065672.670872.311040@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, on 06/06/2005 at 06:47 AM, r.e.ballard@usa.net said:
OS/2 had a boot manager, and this made it possible to boot either>OS/2 or Windows, but these were subject to Microsoft Restrictions>which prevented public disclosures.
All that says is that BM was proprietary, which is quite different from your claim. There is nothing in the license to preclude my using BM to load whatever system I want, and it loads Linux just fine, TYVM.
Linux provided one of the first boot managers which was free of >Microsoft Restrictions,
What m$ restrictions?
which made it possible to boot Linux, OS/2, Windows, MS-DOS, and a few others.
Just as BM was capable of doing earlier.
Prior to the introduction of Linux, Boot managers that booted >multiple operating systems weren't really practical or necessary.
The OS/2 Boot Manager is both practical and necessary.
OS/2 had the ability to run Windows 3.1 applications directly from >OS/2.
Nu, so how did that make BM impractical or unnecessary? You need BM to install multiple releases side-by-side. I routinely run systems with both DOS and OS/2 or DOS, Linux and OS/2, and, yes, the DOS partition does see occasional use.
Microsoft had a boot manager but it only allowed you to boot what>Microsoft wanted you to boot.
If you're talking about the NT boot loader, that was later than the OS/2 BM. If you're talking about the OS/2 BM, then you're wrong: it would load what you told it to load, whether gill bates approved or not.
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Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz wrote:> begin In <1118019727.796125.164400@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, on> 06/05/2005> at 06:02 PM, probability2003@uku.co.uk said:>
DARPA/ARPAnet for example is much more than 20 years old but it>>wasn't until recently that it became ubiquitous. So that's why I>>listed it. And while Xerox invented the GUI>
Does SRI know that?>
it wasn't Xerox, it was Rex.
-- Cheers,
Jim
-begin sig- Opinions expressed in this message may or may not be representative of the opinions of its author. You decide. Linux is not /user-friendly/. It *is* user-friendly. It is not ignorant-friendly, nor is it idiot-friendly.
LinГёnut wrote:> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz poked his little head through the XP firewall and said:>
at 08:30 PM, r.e.ballard@usa.net said:>>
It has been said that when Bill Gates of Microsoft first saw>>>Plug-and-Play Linux, he stopped the "Chicago" (Windows 95)>>>development team in it's tracks and said "We don't release until we>>>have PnP that does NOT work on Linux". >>
"DOS isn't done 'till Lotus won't run.">
Windows ain't done 'til Samba won't run.>
Linux ain't done 'til everything runs.
-- Cheers,
Jim
-begin sig- Opinions expressed in this message may or may not be representative of the opinions of its author. You decide. Linux is not /user-friendly/. It *is* user-friendly. It is not ignorant-friendly, nor is it idiot-friendly.
The CD drives were also slower than the hard drives then. Even a 4X> CD-ROM can only serve data at about 600KB/sec.
Aren't they still slower? Sorry if this is a stupid question. -- "So how do you go on? [...] How will you keep moving for the next few weeks or months until you are known for what you are, the story becomes huge all over the world, and you have reporters at your schools asking you, why?" -- Another JSH mystery
Jesse F. Hughes wrote:> Ray Ingles <sorceror@dmc22317.local> writes:>
The CD drives were also slower than the hard drives then. Even a 4X>> CD-ROM can only serve data at about 600KB/sec.>
Aren't they still slower? Sorry if this is a stupid question.
Yes, they're still much slower than hard drives - at reading and writing and transferring data. CD and DVD players actually rotate at very high speeds, some above 10,000 rpm (most hard drives are still 7,200 rpm, some are 10,000, a few SCSI drives are 15,000), but optical storage transfers data much slower.
In article <873bru5f6s.fsf@phiwumbda.org>, Jesse F. Hughes wrote:> Ray Ingles <sorceror@dmc22317.local> writes:>
The CD drives were also slower than the hard drives then. Even a 4X>> CD-ROM can only serve data at about 600KB/sec. >
Aren't they still slower? Sorry if this is a stupid question.
You're right, that was poorly phrased. "Impractically slower than hard drives" is better. Even a slow hard drive tends to have a better seek time than a CD drive, and back then it was worse.
These days, a Knoppix system is slow but usable. In the early 90's, it would have been close to unusable.
-- Sincerely,
Ray Ingles (313) 227-2317
"Challenging programs for the 'gifted' are sometimes decried as 'elitism'. Why aren't intensive practice sessions for varsity football, baseball, and basketball players and interschool competition deemed elitism? After all, only the most gifted athletes participate." - Carl Sagan
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