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Yes or No: Do I need a headphone amplifier?
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RYXI > Audio > Yes or No: Do I need a headphone amplifier? 20 March 2006 11:04:22

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Yes or No: Do I need a headphone amplifier?

Zerex71 20 March 2006 11:04:22
 Greetings,

As part of my quest to build a home studio, I thought of another
question to pose to the group today. Let's say I get some nice
pro-quality monitor headphones for recording. The question is, Do I
need a headphone amplifier? Why or why not? My thinking is, "The
pros/experts will tell you yes but your heart says, use common sense --
if your headphones are loud enough, they're loud enough, period."
Thoughts/recommenda­tions?

Mike

Add comment
Scott Dorsey 15 March 2006 18:47:13 permanent link ]
 Zerex71 <mfeher@stny.rr.com­> wrote:>
As part of my quest to build a home studio, I thought of another>question to pose to the group today. Let's say I get some nice>pro-quality monitor headphones for recording. The question is, Do I>need a headphone amplifier? Why or why not? My thinking is, "The>pros/experts will tell you yes but your heart says, use common sense -->if your headphones are loud enough, they're loud enough, period.">Thoughts/r­ecommendations?

What do you want headphones for?

If you don't need to drive a bunch of phones for tracking, and you don't
need to do critical listening on phones, skip the headphone amp and use
the crappy amps built into typical consoles and recorders.

If you need to do critical listening, get a headphone amp that sounds
better than the typical internal ones. If you need to drive a lot of
phones, get a powerful amp with a distribution box.

If you don't have a problem, don't worry. If you have a problem, think
about what you need to fix it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Add comment
Mike Rivers 15 March 2006 19:10:31 permanent link ]
 
Zerex71 wrote:
Let's say I get some nice> pro-quality monitor headphones for recording. The question is, Do I> need a headphone amplifier? Why or why not?

As usual, you didn't provide enough information other than "the
headphones are loud enough." If the headphones are loud enough when
plugged into something that will let you hear what you need to hear,
AND if when plugged in there, they sound as good as they can sound,
then no, you don't need a headphone amplifier.

If the headphones sounded loud enough in the store when you tried them
out and you take them home and can't find anything with a usable
headphone jack, then, yes, you need a headphone amplifier to amplify
whatever you connect the headphone amplifier input to.

If you were to say "I have a Behringer mixer with a headphone jack and
I can monitor whatever I need to by using switches on the mixer" then
I'd tell you that you don't need a headphone amplifier.

If you were to say "All I have is my computer's built in sound card and
the headphone jack that's on the computer" I'd suggest that you might
want something of better quality and that you should consider a
headphone amplifier.

I take it this is just for yourself. If you plan to have a studio full
of musicians, you need more than one headphone jack.

Add comment
Walt 15 March 2006 19:12:00 permanent link ]
 Zerex71 wrote:
As part of my quest to build a home studio, I thought of another> question to pose to the group today. Let's say I get some nice> pro-quality monitor headphones for recording. The question is, Do I> need a headphone amplifier? Why or why not? My thinking is, "The> pros/experts will tell you yes but your heart says, use common sense --> if your headphones are loud enough, they're loud enough, period."> Thoughts/recommenda­tions?

Yes, you need a headphone amplifier. The question is whether the one
that's built into your mixer is good enough for what you're trying to
accomplish.

Since I don't know what you're trying to accomplish, or the model of
your console desk all I can do is guess. My guess is that there's
probably a better way to deploy your limited budget at this point. But
that's just a guess.

//Walt
Add comment
Zerex71 15 March 2006 20:02:53 permanent link ]
 Just to clarify - It's just a general question; I see all these people
talking about headphone amps and I think to myself, "It's just me, and
whether I'm listening to the output from my guitar
amp/mixer/computer/­etc. I always have PLENTY of reserve on the volume
knob". In fact, I'm constantly bumping it up and turning it down to
protect my hearing. Is there something else a headphone amp does that
normal built-in amp units don't do? I've never owned a piece of gear
in my life that was so poor that it didn't provide adequate,
non-overdriven sound at acceptable volume levels. (For the record, my
home theater system is nothing special and I never sit in front of it
so I am never listening to it through headphones; this is all for
studio monitoring/mixing/m­astering work, and also to have a set of
practice headphones.)

Does this make sense?

Add comment
Psychodave Thomas 15 March 2006 21:05:34 permanent link ]
 I use a Samson Servo 120 to drive my AKG K240s. I built a 6 channel
passive distribution box, wired it to the Samson. When I need a volume
control I use a small Rolls headphone box. This lashup is loud when I
need it and very good sounding. I've also got a 6 channel Rolls
Headphone amp and 4 channel Symetrix sitting in the rack if I need
them.

DaveT

Add comment
Frank Vuotto 15 March 2006 21:09:28 permanent link ]
 On 15 Mar 2006 06:30:56 -0800, "Zerex71" <mfeher@stny.rr.com­> wrote:

pros/experts will tell you yes but your heart says, use common sense -->if your headphones are loud enough, they're loud enough, period.">Thoughts/r­ecommendations?>
Common sense is really under-utilized since the internet has made
so many opinions and so much information so easily accessible.

Frank /~ http://newmex.com/f­10
@/

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Walt 15 March 2006 21:14:48 permanent link ]
 Zerex71 wrote:
Just to clarify - It's just a general question; I see all these people> talking about headphone amps and I think to myself, "It's just me, and> whether I'm listening to the output from my guitar> amp/mixer/computer/­etc. I always have PLENTY of reserve on the volume> knob". In fact, I'm constantly bumping it up and turning it down to> protect my hearing. Is there something else a headphone amp does that> normal built-in amp units don't do? I've never owned a piece of gear> in my life that was so poor that it didn't provide adequate,> non-overdriven sound at acceptable volume levels. (For the record, my> home theater system is nothing special and I never sit in front of it> so I am never listening to it through headphones; this is all for> studio monitoring/mixing/m­astering work, and also to have a set of> practice headphones.)>
Does this make sense?

There are two questions here: "Is it loud enough?" and "Is it
sufficiently high quality to make critical listening decisions?"

You've answered the first question in the affirmative. As for the
second question, it's more nuanced. As you suggest, most every device
that has a headphone jack provides minially acceptable quality via the
headphone out; the simple truth is that it's not that difficult or
expensive to build a headphone driver circuit, although some devices
still manage to screw it up.
Is there something else a headphone amp does that > normal built-in amp units don't do?

If you're driving multiple pairs of headphones, or driving a "difficult"
pair (e.g. electrostatics) a dedicated amp may provide more current and
handle reactive loads better. For a normal pair of cans, the dedicated
amp does the same thing, but perhaps better depending on what you're
comparing it to.

From what I can infer, you're probably better off spending your limited
budget on something else. Like a better pair of headphones.

//Walt

Add comment
Mike Rivers 15 March 2006 21:20:07 permanent link ]
 
Zerex71 wrote:> Just to clarify - It's just a general question;

Like there are no dumb questions, there are no general questions. You
really need to be more specific if you want someone to try to help you.
We aren't going to write a book personally for you. That's where you
get the answers to general questions.
Is there something else a headphone amp does that> normal built-in amp units don't do?

Oh, so your question isn't really whether you need one or not, you want
to know what's not obvious about the product called a "headphone
amplifier."

A headphone amplifier is typically more complex than just a box with
one input, one output, and some power gain. Headphone amplifiers often
have several outputs, each with its own volume control, and it may have
some simple mixing function built in so that another source, like "more
me" or are reverb can be mixed in with whatever you're feeding to the
headphone amplifier.

Add comment
Phil Wilson 16 March 2006 03:57:22 permanent link ]
 " Is there something else a headphone amp does that normal built-in amp
units don't do? "

Does it matter that some (all?) headphone amps have multiple outputs? If you
want to monitor tracking while you've got someone else singing/playing and
they have phones too, that might be vaguely useful. I guess I'm just
repeating the "do you need multiple outputs" point.
--
Phil Wilson
----
"Zerex71" <mfeher@stny.rr.com­> wrote in message
news:1142438573.724­620.298180@v46g2000c­wv.googlegroups.com.­..> Just to clarify - It's just a general question; I see all these people> talking about headphone amps and I think to myself, "It's just me, and> whether I'm listening to the output from my guitar> amp/mixer/computer/­etc. I always have PLENTY of reserve on the volume> knob". In fact, I'm constantly bumping it up and turning it down to> protect my hearing. Is there something else a headphone amp does that> normal built-in amp units don't do? I've never owned a piece of gear> in my life that was so poor that it didn't provide adequate,> non-overdriven sound at acceptable volume levels. (For the record, my> home theater system is nothing special and I never sit in front of it> so I am never listening to it through headphones; this is all for> studio monitoring/mixing/m­astering work, and also to have a set of> practice headphones.)>
Does this make sense?>


Add comment
Guest 16 March 2006 04:28:20 permanent link ]
 There is one issue i have encountered with my allen & heath mixwizard.
when i am tracking and use this mixer's headphone amp, particularly at
high headphone levels, the changing current demands of the headphone
amp with the signal modulate the power supply rails, and the headphone
signal thus leaks into the mic amps. so, if you are tracking with your
mixer's mic amps whilst using a headphone cue, and you don't have
dedicated mic amps to turn to, and you are having a problem like this,
you may want to get a headphone amp. they are cheaper than good mic
preamps by quite a margin.

SB

Add comment
Bill Ruys 16 March 2006 06:47:51 permanent link ]
 <seanbroderick20003@­yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142468900.453­475.74200@z34g2000cw­c.googlegroups.com..­.> There is one issue i have encountered with my allen & heath mixwizard.> when i am tracking and use this mixer's headphone amp, particularly at> high headphone levels, the changing current demands of the headphone> amp with the signal modulate the power supply rails, and the headphone> signal thus leaks into the mic amps. so, if you are tracking with your> mixer's mic amps whilst using a headphone cue, and you don't have> dedicated mic amps to turn to, and you are having a problem like this,> you may want to get a headphone amp. they are cheaper than good mic> preamps by quite a margin.>
That's just poor design in my opinion - poor decoupling. If you had stated
in your post that it was a Behringer desk, everyone would jump in and tell
you you'd bought a piece of junk. But it's an Allen & Heath, so everyone
will hold off and wait for the next Behringer post. I'm tempted to max out
the headphone amp on my Behringer UB2442 and see if it survives the same
test ;o)

Bill.


Add comment
William Sommerwerck 16 March 2006 16:37:59 permanent link ]
 If this is true, it indicates extremely poor design -- specifically, a
poorly regulated supply insufficiently decoupled from mic preamps that
"self-modulate".


Add comment
Scott Dorsey 16 March 2006 19:30:30 permanent link ]
 In article <1142468900.453475.­74200@z34g2000cwc.go­oglegroups.com>,
<seanbroderick20003­@yahoo.com> wrote:>There is one issue i have encountered with my allen & heath mixwizard.>when i am tracking and use this mixer's headphone amp, particularly at>high headphone levels, the changing current demands of the headphone>amp with the signal modulate the power supply rails, and the headphone>signal thus leaks into the mic amps. so, if you are tracking with your>mixer's mic amps whilst using a headphone cue, and you don't have>dedicated mic amps to turn to, and you are having a problem like this,>you may want to get a headphone amp. they are cheaper than good mic>preamps by quite a margin.

That's really scary.
That sounds like a really, really underdesigned power supply.

Does the metering modulate the supply rails too?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Add comment
Scott Dorsey 16 March 2006 19:51:20 permanent link ]
 William Sommerwerck <gizzledgeezer@comc­ast.net> wrote:>If this is true, it indicates extremely poor design -- specifically, a>poorly regulated supply insufficiently decoupled from mic preamps that>"self-modulate­".

You should see the Broadcast Engineering FM exciters from the early
nineties. They sound different when the front panel LED meter is moved
from dot-mode to bar-mode. In bar-mode, the supply voltage drops when
more segments are illuminated and this modulates the audio. Really, really
shameful. There is a special place in hell reserved for people who design
this stuff.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Add comment
Jakdedert 16 March 2006 20:42:46 permanent link ]
 Scott Dorsey wrote:> In article <1142468900.453475.­74200@z34g2000cwc.go­oglegroups.com>,> <seanbroderick20003­@yahoo.com> wrote:>> There is one issue i have encountered with my allen & heath mixwizard.>> when i am tracking and use this mixer's headphone amp, particularly at>> high headphone levels, the changing current demands of the headphone>> amp with the signal modulate the power supply rails, and the headphone>> signal thus leaks into the mic amps. so, if you are tracking with your>> mixer's mic amps whilst using a headphone cue, and you don't have>> dedicated mic amps to turn to, and you are having a problem like this,>> you may want to get a headphone amp. they are cheaper than good mic>> preamps by quite a margin.>
That's really scary.> That sounds like a really, really underdesigned power supply.>
Underdesigned, or defective? Methinks probably the former, but possibly
the latter. In any case, if it were mine, I'd build/buy an outboard
supply and hack it in...or just ditch the whole thing.

Certainly the immediate problem (headphone amp) is solved by simply not
using it; but IMO it points to a systemic problem which could pop up in
other--more subtle--ways.

jak
Does the metering modulate the supply rails too? > --scott
Add comment
Geoff@home 17 March 2006 00:09:33 permanent link ]
 
"Bill Ruys" <bill.ruys@removeme­.siliconaudio.co.nz>­ wrote in message
news:rl4Sf.6495$JZ1­.212588@news.xtra.co­.nz...> <seanbroderick20003­@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:1142468900.453­475.74200@z34g2000cw­c.googlegroups.com..­.>> There is one issue i have encountered with my allen & heath mixwizard.>> when i am tracking and use this mixer's headphone amp, particularly at>> high headphone levels, the changing current demands of the headphone>> amp with the signal modulate the power supply rails, and the headphone>> signal thus leaks into the mic amps. so, if you are tracking with your>> mixer's mic amps whilst using a headphone cue, and you don't have>> dedicated mic amps to turn to, and you are having a problem like this,>> you may want to get a headphone amp. they are cheaper than good mic>> preamps by quite a margin.>>
That's just poor design in my opinion - poor decoupling. If you had > stated in your post that it was a Behringer desk, everyone would jump in > and tell you you'd bought a piece of junk. But it's an Allen & Heath, so > everyone will hold off and wait for the next Behringer post. I'm tempted > to max out the headphone amp on my Behringer UB2442 and see if it survives > the same test ;o)


Just did - 55ohm phones, Bayringgear SL3242FX-Pro. No artifacts on the
nearest or furtherest mic channel wound up full that I could hear. No, I
was WEARING the headphones !

I suspect the said AH mixer may actually be faulty.

geoff


Add comment
William Sommerwerck 17 March 2006 04:34:28 permanent link ]
 
If this is true, it indicates extremely poor design -- specifically, a>> poorly regulated supply insufficiently decoupled from mic preamps>> that "self-modulate".
You should see the Broadcast Engineering FM exciters from the early> nineties. They sound different when the front panel LED meter is moved> from dot-mode to bar-mode. In bar-mode, the supply voltage drops when> more segments are illuminated and this modulates the audio. Really, really> shameful. There is a special place in hell reserved for people who design> this stuff.

Especially when you consider how cheap tabbed regulators and electrolytic
caps are.


Add comment
Jakdedert 17 March 2006 07:23:18 permanent link ]
 William Sommerwerck wrote:>>> If this is true, it indicates extremely poor design -- specifically, a>>> poorly regulated supply insufficiently decoupled from mic preamps>>> that "self-modulate".>
You should see the Broadcast Engineering FM exciters from the early>> nineties. They sound different when the front panel LED meter is moved>> from dot-mode to bar-mode. In bar-mode, the supply voltage drops when>> more segments are illuminated and this modulates the audio. Really, really>> shameful. There is a special place in hell reserved for people who design>> this stuff.>
Especially when you consider how cheap tabbed regulators and electrolytic> caps are.>
Iron and copper are still expensive. The best regulation in the world
'won't' if there's not enough juice going in.

jak
Add comment
Zerex71 17 March 2006 19:21:11 permanent link ]
 Actually for right now, I do not. It's just me, recording me. I might
in the future, and totally understand that I'd need that setup in a
studio configuration, but my "studio" is just going to be "the computer
area behind my couch". :)­

Mike

Add comment
Guest 18 March 2006 12:47:37 permanent link ]
 
Does the metering modulate the supply rails too?

not that i can tell. the leakage wasn't at unity obviously. maybe
like 40 dB down or something. but at first i thought i had mispatched
something. i was like "WTF?" it is a switching supply in there, which
is kinda scary. but the mic amps sound pretty good for $1000/16 mic
inputs. this kind of thing really exists in all gear, because no power
supply can go all the way to zero ohm source impedance, but in good
gear it's at -120 or something.

Add comment


Guest 18 March 2006 13:41:23 permanent link ]
 it would be a better test to record a signal #1 from a mic (or signal
generator)->mic amp in the mixer->ADC while blasting another,
spectrally different signal #2 through a channel routed to the
headphone jack with headphones connected, headphone level high. then
listen to the recording, and see if you can hear signal #2. use beepy
type signals in the 2-4 kHz range if you want to maximize your ears'
ability to discern this. i guess you could eliminate signal #1 and
just listen for #2, but in real usage you would have at least two, as
in a reference mix, and an overdub signal.

this originally came about because i was recording real drums to a
prepared track, thus needing a loud headphone cue. gear goes out the
door all the time with design shortcomings, i think the mixer was
performing to spec. headphone amps driving very low z headphones
require many times the peak current present in a mic amp swinging into
a 5 or 10k load.

Sean B

Add comment
RD Jones 20 March 2006 11:04:22 permanent link ]
 
Zerex71 wrote:
Just to clarify - It's just a general question; I see all these people> talking about headphone amps and I think to myself, "It's just me, and> whether I'm listening to the output from my guitar> amp/mixer/computer/­etc. I always have PLENTY of reserve on the volume> knob". In fact, I'm constantly bumping it up and turning it down to> protect my hearing. Is there something else a headphone amp does that> normal built-in amp units don't do?

IME the use of a headphone amp is primarily for
distribution and control of levels of several sets of
phones rather than amplification. The Rane units
are good examples. Assuming you're getting good
clean levels there's no sense in adding to the signal
chain for a single pair of cans.
this is all for studio monitoring/mixing/m­astering work,> and also to have a set of practice headphones.)

Other than for the practice use mentioned, I'd reserve
use of phones to tracking and editing. Mixing through
phones can be misleading, and for mastering they can
serve as a "check-point" but shouldn't be your front line.
They simply don't translate well.

rd

ps - remember to protect your hearing when using cans
by using sensible levels and/or exposure times.

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RYXI > Audio > Yes or No: Do I need a headphone amplifier? 20 March 2006 11:04:22

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