Mark wrote:> ...I think you can make great records (or whatever you want to call em now)...
Hi Mark! I'm also curious about the terms "record" and "album". Are they still valid and in common use? I would think they should be, since a song is still a recording and an album is a collection of those songs. The term "CD" is no longer the best blanket term for our product since a lot of people now simply download songs and play them in their computers or iPods, either legitimately from iTunes, etc or otherwise. And they make their own albums. I feel these terms are as useful as ever, IMO. Cheers, Rick Novak.
I was having this exact same discussion with some friends the other night.
I agree with you, a "record" is anything that has been recorded, regardless of the medium. A photograph is a record of an image, just as a recording of a song is a record of sound. An album is a collection of records, bound or connected together somehow, whether the records are photographs or songs.
My friend insisted that records and albums only referred to vinyl. He finally relented when I asked him what to call my band's latest collection of somewhat related songs that were only released as mp3 downloads on the Internet. He hemmed and hawed for a while until he realized that it was an "album". There's just no other word for it.
He didn't give in on the word "record" though. He insisted that records are made out of vinyl and are played on a turntable, while "recordings" could be vinyl, tape, CD, or anything else.
Scott Dorsey 10 January 2006 06:19:53 [ permanent link ]
pumpcat <pumpcat@hotmail.com> wrote:>
My friend insisted that records and albums only referred to vinyl. He>finally relented when I asked him what to call my band's latest>collection of somewhat related songs that were only released as mp3>downloads on the Internet. He hemmed and hawed for a while until he>realized that it was an "album". There's just no other word for it.
Strictly speaking, "albums" refer only to 78s and 45s. An album is a booklet that physically contains a bunch of singles, sold together. The modern usage of "album" to refer to an LP that contains several single tracks on each side was also fought against when the LP was new.
He didn't give in on the word "record" though. He insisted that records>are made out of vinyl and are played on a turntable, while "recordings">could be vinyl, tape, CD, or anything else.
What about cylinder recordings? Are they records? Or do they have to be gramophone discs? --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
What about cylinder recordings? Are they records? Or do they have to be> gramophone discs?> --scott
A cylinder is just that a round tube which was made of a wax like substance that had sound recorded on it. The cylinder record is attributed to Thomas Edison. A gramophone disc is simply that a flat pancake of shellac which is the juice from a beetle in the southern asia. Berliner made the first flat gramophone record in the late 1890s in Canada.
Scott Dorsey 10 January 2006 16:49:01 [ permanent link ]
don ward <dward7@earthlink.net> wrote:>> What about cylinder recordings? Are they records? Or do they have to be>> gramophone discs?>
A cylinder is just that a round tube which was made of a wax like >substance that had sound recorded on it. The cylinder record is >attributed to Thomas Edison.
So you are saying that cylinder meets the requirements to be called a "record." --scott
-- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
On 10 Jan 2006 08:49:01 -0500, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
don ward <dward7@earthlink.net> wrote:>>> What about cylinder recordings? Are they records? Or do they have to be>>> gramophone discs?>>
A cylinder is just that a round tube which was made of a wax like >>substance that had sound recorded on it. The cylinder record is >>attributed to Thomas Edison.>
So you are saying that cylinder meets the requirements to be called>a "record.">--scott
For goodness sake - a record is exactly what it says it is; a record. There is nothing about the word that specifies either the medium or the shape.
An album is a collection of records - the same applies.
Adrian Tuddenham 10 January 2006 18:49:44 [ permanent link ]
Don Pearce <donald@pearce.uk.com> wrote:
On 10 Jan 2006 08:49:01 -0500, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:>
don ward <dward7@earthlink.net> wrote:> >>> What about cylinder recordings? Are they records? Or do they have to be> >>> gramophone discs?> >>
A cylinder is just that a round tube which was made of a wax like > >>substance that had sound recorded on it. The cylinder record is > >>attributed to Thomas Edison.> >
So you are saying that cylinder meets the requirements to be called> >a "record."> >--scott>
For goodness sake - a record is exactly what it says it is; a record.> There is nothing about the word that specifies either the medium or> the shape.
I think you'll find one of the early patents for records even includes a zig-zag line.
-- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Roger W. Norman 10 January 2006 19:14:07 [ permanent link ]
I'm also curious about the terms "record" and "album". Are they still> valid and in common use?
Come on, Rick. Recordings are simply that, whether it be a number of tracks comprising one song or work, whilst an album is a collection of recordings in one compilation. CD is the medium of distribution. They are all interchangeable at the fartherest stretch, and only become more specific when one drills down, such as an interview talking about recordings on an album. I don't see that the media a release uses making the terms any different for a collection of recordings. Besides, vinyl is so old now that other than using two disc album covers for rolling fatties, why make a distinction? I've kept Waiting for Columbus just in case anyone ever comes over again with a need for something larger than a CD booklet! <g>
Hey, there's an idea for your next Bucky Burro Album! <g> The lonely album cover, stuck in the corner, under an inch of dust wondering what happened to all the good times.
--
Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/ "Is our children learning?" President George W. Bush "rickymix" <snovak2@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:1136843277.040283.169050@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...> Mark wrote:> > ...I think you can make great records (or whatever you want to call em now)...>
Hi Mark!
I would think they should be, since a song is> still a recording and an album is a collection of those songs. The> term "CD" is no longer the best blanket term for our product since a> lot of people now simply download songs and play them in their> computers or iPods, either legitimately from iTunes, etc or otherwise.> And they make their own albums.> I feel these terms are as useful as ever, IMO.> Cheers, Rick Novak.>
On 1/9/06 10:19 PM, in article dpv94p$m7k$1@panix2.panix.com, "Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
pumpcat <pumpcat@hotmail.com> wrote:>>
My friend insisted that records and albums only referred to vinyl. He>> finally relented when I asked him what to call my band's latest>> collection of somewhat related songs that were only released as mp3>> downloads on the Internet. He hemmed and hawed for a while until he>> realized that it was an "album". There's just no other word for it.>
Strictly speaking, "albums" refer only to 78s and 45s. An album is> a booklet that physically contains a bunch of singles, sold together.> The modern usage of "album" to refer to an LP that contains several> single tracks on each side was also fought against when the LP was new.>
He didn't give in on the word "record" though. He insisted that records>> are made out of vinyl and are played on a turntable, while "recordings">> could be vinyl, tape, CD, or anything else.>
What about cylinder recordings? Are they records? Or do they have to be> gramophone discs?> --scott
A record is a record.
It's a tangible/usable collected documentation of related information whether it's A Ms word file, a police rap sheet, a photograph, a college trnascript, a video deposition or your fav band's live show CDr that you bought on the way out of the venue.
He didn't give in on the word "record" though. He insisted that records> are made out of vinyl and are played on a turntable, while "recordings"> could be vinyl, tape, CD, or anything else.
As I recall, old 78s were NOT made of vinyl. They had a core that looked like some kind of cardboard (but stiffer) covered with some kind of plastic that was MUCH more brittle that I would expect from vinyl, but yet too dense to be styrene. Maybe some derivative of bakelite?
It's a tangible/usable collected documentation of related information> whether it's A Ms word file, a police rap sheet, a photograph, a college> trnascript, a video deposition or your fav band's live show CDr that you> bought on the way out of the venue.
J. P. Morris 11 January 2006 02:26:13 [ permanent link ]
Agent 86 wrote:
pumpcat wrote:>
As I recall, old 78s were NOT made of vinyl. They had a core that looked> like some kind of cardboard (but stiffer) covered with some kind of> plastic that was MUCH more brittle that I would expect from vinyl, but yet> too dense to be styrene. Maybe some derivative of bakelite?
Many 78s were made from shellac, as I recall. I have seen some really weird ones that seemed to be made from paper or card.. I don't think we could get those to play back properly. I'll have to try and find them again.
-- JP Morris - aka DOUG the Eagle (Dragon) -=UDIC=- jpm@it-he.org Anti-walkthroughs for Deus Ex, Thief and Ultima http://www.it-he.org Reign of the Just - An Ultima clone http://rotj.it-he.org The DMFA radio series project http://dmfa.it-he.org d+++ e+ N+ T++ Om U1234!56!7'!S'!8!9!KAW u++ uC+++ uF+++ uG---- uLB---- uA--- nC+ nR---- nH+++ nP++ nI nPT nS nT wM- wC- y a(YEAR - 1976)
Dr. Dolittle 11 January 2006 02:28:02 [ permanent link ]
When I refer specifically to the vinyl version, I call it a record album.
rickymix wrote:
Mark wrote:>
...I think you can make great records (or whatever you want to call em now)...>
Hi Mark!> I'm also curious about the terms "record" and "album". Are they still> valid and in common use? I would think they should be, since a song is> still a recording and an album is a collection of those songs. The> term "CD" is no longer the best blanket term for our product since a> lot of people now simply download songs and play them in their> computers or iPods, either legitimately from iTunes, etc or otherwise.> And they make their own albums.> I feel these terms are as useful as ever, IMO.> Cheers, Rick Novak.>
He didn't give in on the word "record" though. He insisted that records>> are made out of vinyl and are played on a turntable, while "recordings">> could be vinyl, tape, CD, or anything else.>
As I recall, old 78s were NOT made of vinyl. They had a core that looked>like some kind of cardboard (but stiffer) covered with some kind of plastic>that was MUCH more brittle that I would expect from vinyl, but yet too>dense to be styrene. Maybe some derivative of bakelite?
Shellac. Ground up bugs. Later ones were unplasticized vinyl like "Unbreakable Metrolite." --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Jim Gilliland 11 January 2006 14:50:58 [ permanent link ]
rickymix wrote:> Jim wrote:>
yes, CDs are records.>
And they are albums, too.
They can be. An album is a collection, in this case a collection of songs. If a CD has multiple songs (traditionally, a dozen or so, but I'm flexible on that point <g>), then it's an album.
Adrian Tuddenham 11 January 2006 15:19:56 [ permanent link ]
Agent 86 <maxwellsmart@control.gov> wrote:
pumpcat wrote:>
He didn't give in on the word "record" though. He insisted that records> > are made out of vinyl and are played on a turntable, while "recordings"> > could be vinyl, tape, CD, or anything else.>
As I recall, old 78s were NOT made of vinyl. They had a core that looked> like some kind of cardboard (but stiffer) covered with some kind of plastic> that was MUCH more brittle that I would expect from vinyl, but yet too> dense to be styrene. Maybe some derivative of bakelite?
The majority of 78s were made primarily from slate dust, rottenstone (whatever that might be) and other fillers and abrasives, sometimes with cotton flock to bind it. A smaller proportion of the mix was shellac, which held it all together and allowed the mix to become plastic at temperatures around 100 C.
There were also 'silent-surface' discs pressed by the Columbia process. They were laminated with a core of cheap coarsely-ground slate/shellac mixture. The playing surface was a thin layer of very finely ground mixture which had been separated from the coarser particles by an air-floatation process.
The fine coating was spread onto sheets of paper before being laminated to the core in a record press, the paper was there to prevent the larger grains of the core from poking through into the playing surface.
There were all sorts of experiments with coated cardboard and fire-retardent (perhaps) cellulose nitrate, but they never had much commercial success. 'Direct cut' discs (nitrate on aluminium) turn up from time to time, as do 'filled' vinyl pressings which resisted the damage from steel needles better than vinyl alone would have done.
Edison 'Diamond Discs' were the only ones really made of Bakelite, coated onto a core of compressed material (it looks like plaster but is much stronger). They were much thicker than ordinary records, were recorded with vertical modulation and revolved at 80 rpm - so I suppose they weren't strictly 78s.
-- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk
What was the deal with those flexible black square singles that you used to have to carefully tear out of MAD Magazine? I remember being amazed that those would actually play on my turntable. And they sounded good, at least to my 8 year old ears. I loved those things! Was "They're Coming To Take Me Away, Ha Ha!" one of them? One of my big inspirations, obviously.... :>) Cheers, Rick.
Adrian Tuddenham 12 January 2006 01:23:24 [ permanent link ]
rickymix <snovak2@earthlink.net> wrote:
What was the deal with those flexible black square singles that you> used to have to carefully tear out of MAD Magazine? I remember being> amazed that those would actually play on my turntable. And they> sounded good, at least to my 8 year old ears. I loved those things!> Was "They're Coming To Take Me Away, Ha Ha!" one of them? One of my> big inspirations, obviously.... :>)
I'm pretty sure they were vinyl but it may have been a different grade from the standard pressing material. They were made in the UK by a firm called "Lyntone" - and yes, they did play well (and the ones I have collected still do) but you may have to weight them down with a few half-crowns on the label to stop them from slipping.
-- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk
"Adrian Tuddenham" <poppy.uk@ukonline.invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:1h90u16.gagfc87h4u0kN%poppy.uk@ukonline.invalid.invalid...> rickymix <snovak2@earthlink.net> wrote:>
What was the deal with those flexible black square singles that you>> used to have to carefully tear out of MAD Magazine? I remember being>> amazed that those would actually play on my turntable. And they>> sounded good, at least to my 8 year old ears. I loved those things!>> Was "They're Coming To Take Me Away, Ha Ha!" one of them? One of my>> big inspirations, obviously.... :>)>
I'm pretty sure they were vinyl but it may have been a different grade> from the standard pressing material. They were made in the UK by a firm> called "Lyntone" - and yes, they did play well (and the ones I have> collected still do) but you may have to weight them down with a few> half-crowns on the label to stop them from slipping.>
They were also made in the USA. I worked for a radio/TV syndicator, when they first became available. We used them as a way to get samples of shows to buyers by tabbing them into Broadcasting Magazine.
Scott Dorsey 12 January 2006 06:58:49 [ permanent link ]
rickymix <snovak2@earthlink.net> wrote:>What was the deal with those flexible black square singles that you>used to have to carefully tear out of MAD Magazine? I remember being>amazed that those would actually play on my turntable. And they>sounded good, at least to my 8 year old ears. I loved those things!>Was "They're Coming To Take Me Away, Ha Ha!" one of them? One of my>big inspirations, obviously.... :>)
Those are EvaTone Soundsheets. EvaTone is still around but I think they stopped doing soundsheets a couple years back. I used to do a lot of masters for those things once. --scott
-- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Was "They're Coming To Take Me Away, Ha Ha!" >one of them?
No, that was Napoleon the 14th, as I remember, was on a real vinyl record! "Nose Job" was on there, which was a promo for the album, which really wasn't an "album", but a "long playing record"
I think a lot of the fun was getting the Soundsheets to play.
Tom
"rickymix" <snovak2@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:1137017684.637415.221970@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...> What was the deal with those flexible black square singles that you> used to have to carefully tear out of MAD Magazine? I remember being> amazed that those would actually play on my turntable. And they> sounded good, at least to my 8 year old ears. I loved those things!> Was "They're Coming To Take Me Away, Ha Ha!" one of them? One of my> big inspirations, obviously.... :>)> Cheers, Rick.>
rickymix wrote:> Mark wrote:> > ...I think you can make great records (or whatever you want to call em now)...>
Hi Mark!> I'm also curious about the terms "record" and "album". Are they still> valid and in common use? I would think they should be, since a song is> still a recording and an album is a collection of those songs. The> term "CD" is no longer the best blanket term for our product since a> lot of people now simply download songs and play them in their> computers or iPods, either legitimately from iTunes, etc or otherwise.> And they make their own albums.> I feel these terms are as useful as ever, IMO.> Cheers, Rick Novak.
A record is clearly a vinyl LP. In the years before CD, no-one ever called a cassette recording of the same data a "record". Show the man in the street a cassette tape and ask him if this is a "record".
"Album" was always used interchangeably regardless of medium, and therefore is applicable to CDs.
Huwgar wrote:> A record is clearly a vinyl LP. In the years before CD, no-one ever called a cassette recording of the same data a "record".
Good point, and that's the terminology I grew up with as well. I wonder what "record" meant before vinyl? But in this post-vinyl era, possibly soon to become a post-CD era, I concur with Mark, that our job continues to be the making of records; recordings of music, however these recordings are distributed. It's too good of a term to throw away. "What do you do?" "I make records." Rick.
Paul Stamler 13 January 2006 06:12:17 [ permanent link ]
"rickymix" <snovak2@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:1137119407.711484.225300@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...> Huwgar wrote:> > A record is clearly a vinyl LP. In the years before CD, no-one ever> called a cassette recording of the same data a "record".>
Good point, and that's the terminology I grew up with as well. I> wonder what "record" meant before vinyl?
A record is clearly a vinyl LP. In the years before CD, no-one ever> called a cassette recording of the same data a "record". Show the man> in the street a cassette tape and ask him if this is a "record".>
"Album" was always used interchangeably regardless of medium, and> therefore is applicable to CDs.
Owing to the possibility of generational differences, I consider all grooved discs to be "records". In my youth there was no difference between 45s and LPs when refering to records. Even 78s would have been called "old records". An LP might have been refered to as a "record album" and 45s were either singles or just records.
Huwgar wrote:> > A record is clearly a vinyl LP. In the years before CD, no-one ever> called a cassette recording of the same data a "record".>
Good point, and that's the terminology I grew up with as well. I> wonder what "record" meant before vinyl?> But in this post-vinyl era, possibly soon to become a post-CD era, I> concur with Mark, that our job continues to be the making of records;> recordings of music, however these recordings are distributed. It's> too good of a term to throw away. "What do you do?" "I make records."> Rick.
Old habits die hard, I find myself refering to CDs as either records -or- albums. Sometimes I get funny looks from the kids.
Yes, I make records. They just happen to be in the digital form of a CD.
Adrian Tuddenham 13 January 2006 13:50:13 [ permanent link ]
Paul Stamler <pstamlerhell@pobox.com> wrote:
"rickymix" <snovak2@earthlink.net> wrote in message> news:1137119407.711484.225300@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...> > Huwgar wrote:> > > A record is clearly a vinyl LP. In the years before CD, no-one ever> > called a cassette recording of the same data a "record".> >
Good point, and that's the terminology I grew up with as well. I> > wonder what "record" meant before vinyl?>
Shellac.
And cylinders (wax or plastic)
...and, of course, simply a written record on paper long before sound recording.
-- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk
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